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The Mil-Dot system
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GP_sniper
#1 Posted : 11 April 2012 12:56:32(UTC)

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Hi guys,

Trying to figure out how the mil-dot system exactly works in Sniper Elite V2.

I'm using the information on this picture as reference:
http://www.mil-dot.com/m...1001/user-guide-010.jpg

But if I use the following formula...

1.8 (average hight of person) x 1000 (hence the term "mil") / # of mil dots

... the results returned from the binoculars don't match the calculations using the mil-dot system...

For example:

On the first guard in the demo:

- Binoculars = 84 meters
- Mil-dot = 1.8 * 1000 / ~7 = 258 meters

http://postimage.org/image/kv3q6849j/
http://postimage.org/image/3kqqb3ej9/

Is this not the correct way to calculate for distance?

Any advice? Cool


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BBFaNaTiC86
#2 Posted : 11 April 2012 12:59:51(UTC)

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The first mil hits 100 metres and the second mil hits 200. The ballistics are exaggerated for the confined spaces. Think an admin said the rifle is centered on 0 metres.
I'm the one shot-one kill, bringer of fate!
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Trombone Master on 13/04/2012(UTC)
GP_sniper
#3 Posted : 11 April 2012 13:08:28(UTC)

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Even so the calculation is way of... It's not really close quarters. It's 84 meters!
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IDS Bull the Great
#4 Posted : 11 April 2012 14:10:09(UTC)

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well , then I guess the first dot is not 100 meters but actually 200 meters or ? :S I am so confused . messing with nature never comes out good ...
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GP_sniper
#5 Posted : 11 April 2012 14:31:05(UTC)

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Unless someone can correct me...
I even tried factor 0.4 and 0.6 depending on scope capabilty...
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DanDare88
#6 Posted : 11 April 2012 14:36:11(UTC)

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Formula is correct for range finding .
This has been covered before and took a while for admin to answer on the subject
http://sniperelitev2.com...t.aspx?g=posts&t=96

Its a pain that they havent included Real ballistics-As said above - the "ballistics" have been exaggerated.
Rifles Zeroed at zero( Yea I know... its bad)
Ive found the first notch is around
100
1.5 good for around 190
2.0 is the 250 ballpark

Its a bit of a mess but I guess practice is only going to help.

I would love the use of the mildot system and have a Dope card to figure out the holdovers-
Unfortunately its not the case.
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GP_sniper
#7 Posted : 11 April 2012 14:39:47(UTC)

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So much for advanced ballistics!
Problem is there is no range indicator on level 'sniper elite' when using the binoculars...

:-( this a serious bummer for a sniper SIM
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DanDare88
#8 Posted : 11 April 2012 15:27:15(UTC)

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GP_sniper wrote:
So much for advanced ballistics!
Problem is there is no range indicator on level 'sniper elite' when using the binoculars...

:-( this a serious bummer for a sniper SIM


Exactly!I feel your pain mate-
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IDS Bull the Great
#9 Posted : 11 April 2012 16:10:42(UTC)

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I think developers shold give us some official charts ...

I also suggest someone shoots at wall or soemthing , notices distance between notches , and stuff , uses binocs to get range on soldier near wall and remember what notch is exactly zeroes in on the middle of the head for 100 200 300 or 400 meters kinda distance ...
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sandberg91
#10 Posted : 30 April 2012 15:20:59(UTC)
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try at full zoom

mil-dot
6: 100m
5.5: 110m
5:120m
4.5:130m
4: 150m
3.5: 170m
3:200m
2.5: 240m
2: 300m
1.5:400 m
1:600m
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Adromaw
#11 Posted : 09 May 2012 04:27:13(UTC)
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GP_sniper wrote:
Hi guys,

Trying to figure out how the mil-dot system exactly works in Sniper Elite V2.

I'm using the information on this picture as reference:
http://www.mil-dot.com/m...1001/user-guide-010.jpg

But if I use the following formula...

1.8 (average hight of person) x 1000 (hence the term "mil") / # of mil dots

... the results returned from the binoculars don't match the calculations using the mil-dot system...

For example:

On the first guard in the demo:

- Binoculars = 84 meters
- Mil-dot = 1.8 * 1000 / ~7 = 258 meters

http://postimage.org/image/kv3q6849j/
http://postimage.org/image/3kqqb3ej9/

Is this not the correct way to calculate for distance?

Any advice? Cool


Everyone's posted formulas have been incorrect. The reason people are having difficulty in matching the range finder with the mildot system is because of scaling. Typically game worlds are scaled down from the real world and it's the norm in the industry to represent the world in an equivalent scale. Think of it like walking through a model scene.

Someone posted screen shots of their TV attempts to range a soldier leaning against a wall and posted the range finder at 84m. From those pictures and playing around with numbers, I've worked out that the scaling is around 3. So if you scale down the 1.8 figure for the height of an actor in the game world by a scale of 3 you should match the range finder an be able to correctly use the mildot system. At least for the scope texture that, that figure came from.
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Adromaw
#12 Posted : 09 May 2012 04:32:08(UTC)
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and as a short note, exchange 1.8 for .588.
.588 * 1000
588 / 7
84m
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ghost
#13 Posted : 09 May 2012 09:09:19(UTC)

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All you need to do is play it on easy mode, look down the binos, recorded distance to target, scope and place the diamond helper on the target, note down the millidots that its on, go back to elite mode with an actual guide from gameplay as youve seen it.
@Ghostlylogic
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geezuz
#14 Posted : 09 May 2012 15:47:59(UTC)
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Adromaw wrote:
GP_sniper wrote:
Hi guys,

Trying to figure out how the mil-dot system exactly works in Sniper Elite V2.

I'm using the information on this picture as reference:
http://www.mil-dot.com/m...1001/user-guide-010.jpg

But if I use the following formula...

1.8 (average hight of person) x 1000 (hence the term "mil") / # of mil dots

... the results returned from the binoculars don't match the calculations using the mil-dot system...

For example:

On the first guard in the demo:

- Binoculars = 84 meters
- Mil-dot = 1.8 * 1000 / ~7 = 258 meters

http://postimage.org/image/kv3q6849j/
http://postimage.org/image/3kqqb3ej9/

Is this not the correct way to calculate for distance?

Any advice? Cool


Everyone's posted formulas have been incorrect. The reason people are having difficulty in matching the range finder with the mildot system is because of scaling. Typically game worlds are scaled down from the real world and it's the norm in the industry to represent the world in an equivalent scale. Think of it like walking through a model scene.

Someone posted screen shots of their TV attempts to range a soldier leaning against a wall and posted the range finder at 84m. From those pictures and playing around with numbers, I've worked out that the scaling is around 3. So if you scale down the 1.8 figure for the height of an actor in the game world by a scale of 3 you should match the range finder an be able to correctly use the mildot system. At least for the scope texture that, that figure came from.


erm, not to nitpick, but everyone's formula HASN'T been incorrect according to your own post here. The problem is the gameworld is not to real world scale? Well, then I have to say that means that the world is incorrectly represented - doesn't make the formula wrong.

What is wrong is the crosshair/mildot graphic the game displays. It should take that difference in scale in account, not ask the player to readjust well established sniper methods.
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MikeyT
#15 Posted : 09 May 2012 16:00:59(UTC)
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Also, keep in mind that the mil-dot values begin to change as soon as you press the focus time button. This "feature" causes the scope to zoom in, thus making the mil-dot ranges change continually until focus time stops zooming.
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geezuz
#16 Posted : 09 May 2012 19:54:14(UTC)
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MikeyT wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the mil-dot values begin to change as soon as you press the focus time button. This "feature" causes the scope to zoom in, thus making the mil-dot ranges change continually until focus time stops zooming.


true. Also something an actual "sniping sim" as this claims to be would have probably gotten right.

That's like makign the TDC in a sub sim not work right because hey, in games things aren't to scale, or because you can zoom in on a map. ludicrous.

If it would've been advertised as an action game with a sniper rifle focus, fine. But looking at the website it does not deliver what's advertised.

Advanced sniping simulation my rear end. HAHAHA. Fun game, but no sniper sim, not even close.

no dope
no data book
kentucky windage only
no stalking, or real stealth of any kind
no camouflaging
no long shots
impossible to use real range estimation of any kind
no mirage, but a gamey vague wind indicator

I just wish I didn't dig the kill cams so much...because I'm still playing, but really just for that.
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MikeyT
#17 Posted : 09 May 2012 22:42:00(UTC)
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geezuz wrote:
MikeyT wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the mil-dot values begin to change as soon as you press the focus time button. This "feature" causes the scope to zoom in, thus making the mil-dot ranges change continually until focus time stops zooming.


true. Also something an actual "sniping sim" as this claims to be would have probably gotten right.

That's like makign the TDC in a sub sim not work right because hey, in games things aren't to scale, or because you can zoom in on a map. ludicrous.

If it would've been advertised as an action game with a sniper rifle focus, fine. But looking at the website it does not deliver what's advertised.

Advanced sniping simulation my rear end. HAHAHA. Fun game, but no sniper sim, not even close.

no dope
no data book
kentucky windage only
no stalking, or real stealth of any kind
no camouflaging
no long shots
impossible to use real range estimation of any kind
no mirage, but a gamey vague wind indicator

I just wish I didn't dig the kill cams so much...because I'm still playing, but really just for that.


I agree that it may not be an Advanced Sniping Sim, but all things considered, an amazing effort on Rebellion's part. They leaned a bit too far in the popular shooter direction for my taste, but that's what they thought would sell and they're the ones who need to make money on it. Knowing that, I'm still surprised they got such a fundamental aspect wrong. It's almost as if, in their effort to include a more action type gameplay, they forgot about those of us who don't want to use aim assist.

I can't get enough of the kill cams either.
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Adromaw
#18 Posted : 10 May 2012 03:17:06(UTC)
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geezuz wrote:
erm, not to nitpick, but everyone's formula HASN'T been incorrect according to your own post here. The problem is the gameworld is not to real world scale? Well, then I have to say that means that the world is incorrectly represented - doesn't make the formula wrong.

What is wrong is the crosshair/mildot graphic the game displays. It should take that difference in scale in account, not ask the player to readjust well established sniper methods.

Not to nitpick back, but if you apply a formula with values from the wrong world then the fault is still yours. They could have made it easy on you, sure, and rescaled the world up again but they are representing (your word choice)the world, not recreating it.

It's actually represented quite well and fairly correctly, three times smaller.

On the other hand, we can just do the damn math and get on with it. Or we can bicker about why the game isn't at least or greater than three times the download because everything was modelled to insane details and we foot logged a real kilometre.

As for no long shots, wouldn't you call hitting something almost half a kilometre away (400 meters) a long shot - given the period?
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DanDare88
#19 Posted : 10 May 2012 05:31:26(UTC)

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The funniest thing is scopes of the era DIDNT even use the mildot system!Didnt come along till the 70's

Mils originally used for artillery

So its all irrelevant!
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Adromaw
#20 Posted : 10 May 2012 09:14:33(UTC)
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DanDare88 wrote:
The funniest thing is scopes of the era DIDNT even use the mildot system!Didnt come along till the 70's

Mils originally used for artillery

So its all irrelevant!

Lol (it is funny and suggestive of the range-role of snipers), well if they didn't include the mil-dots anyway, they'd really be in a range finding pickle on sniper-elite mode!

But it's in the game and the OP asked for advice, the advice there is that to the real-world, the S is not a constant (but in the game it will be) and it's not 1.8 or not likely. Certainly didn't match the range finder distance.

Unless I've messed up my own poor maths, which is easy to do.

It really does get irrelevant when there's a sidetrack of grumbling about urban targets and sniping to a mission effective range. No one's going to get any documents from a body a kilometre away.

It is making me want to watch Enemy at the Gates again though.
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